I wonder if you can say anything about the Catholic faith without people taking offense. No matter how benign, no comment on the web about Catholicism goes unchallenged. That goes for blogs, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube and pretty much everything else. Moreover, the idea of trying to understand a person by reading carefully what they're actually saying, or giving them the benefit of the doubt, is fading quickly from Catholic discourse. No matter what you write, there are Catholics ready to take immediate offense, to explode in righteous anger, to threaten to report you to the proper authorities or, most of all, to correct. The most common responses are these five: 1.) Your soul is in mortal danger. 2.) You’re uneducated and need to be schooled. 3.) I hate the church and so I hate you. 4.) You’re an unthinking tool of the Vatican. 5.) You’re disobedient and must be reported.
Here is a not-so-farfetched exchange, based on some very, very real experiences. Believe me, it would be hard to make this stuff up.
Me: I love Jesus.
Father Martin, with all due respect, I don’t mean to be critical, particularly to a priest, but I am compelled to point out that in your most recent post, you didn’t say “Jesus Christ.” As you know, Christ, from the Greek word Christos, meaning the Anointed One (years ago, all Jesuits understood Greek, but perhaps no longer), is the nomenclature that Holy Mother Church uses to signify Our Lord’s divinity. Father, do you somehow not believe in the divinity of Our Blessed Lord? I am terrified to conclude that you are also denying the Resurrection here. Father, I will fervently pray that you are not dwelling in error, as I have feared for you since I read this post and reread the definition of “heresy” in a theology reference book that I always keep handy. I pray every evening for gravely misled people like you, Father, and I must say this: my conscience obliges me to correct your errors. Do you fear for your soul?
Me: You’re misunderstanding me. Of course I believe in the divinity of Christ. And the Resurrection.
Father, forgive me for pointing this out, but I couldn’t help noticing in your last comment that you said you believed in the divinity of Christ. What about his humanity? As you surely know (or at least I hope Jesuits are still taught this, as I was in Catholic school) several ecumenical councils spoke definitively about his humanity (e.g., Ephesus, in 431 A.D.). I trust that you understand what that means, Father. This means that Jesus was a flesh-and-blood human being (Catechism of the Catholic Church No. 464). I feel obliged to ask: Do you believe him to be divine but not human? That is a heresy, as you know, Father, and I greatly fear for our church if priests are permitted spread such serious theological errors. It is, I would like to humbly remind you, the heresy of Docetism, (Nicea, 325 A.D., Catechism No. 465) where Jesus was not seen as a human being, but God simply "playacting" (as my dear theology professor used to tell our class) at being human. Surely you’re not suggesting that, are you, Father? Are you a Docetist? (Or, worse, a Monophysite?) Please send me your email address and I will forward you all the references to the councils so that you may read them, study them, and pray over them. I will do you the favor of awaiting an answer before I begin any formal canonical action against you.
Me: Look, I believe in both the divinity and humanity of Christ. I was only saying that I love Jesus. Can we perhaps move on?
I haven’t followed this thread and I don’t know what you posted about, but did you REALLY say that in your last comment? Move on??? Do you realize what it MEANS for a priest to tell a layperson like me to “move on”? Do you know how sick and TIRED we are of priests like you telling me what to do? I’ll move on when I WANT to move on!!! It’s this kind of clerical ARROGANCE that gave rise to the sexual abuse scandal. Is that what you want, Martin, a return to sexual abuse?!! And what’s with the “Look,” at the beginning of your snotty comeback? What’s THAT supposed to mean? Frankly I find that incredibly insulting. Who do you think you are??? I don’t think you can ever fathom the anger that people like me have for priests like you. I used to like the Jesuits once, back when they cared about the poor. Now all you do is cater to the WEALTHY in your schools!! LOOK—as you might say to me--I studied theology too, am a lifelong Catholic (no matter WHAT any priest or bishop tells me), and don’t need to be told to “look” at anything. By ANY priest!!! I see very clearly, thank you. I see what the church is up to. Read the papers!!! It’s all about squashing the laity. Have you ever even HEARD of Vatican II???? For those of you as angry as I am, and SICK of being treated like DIRT by the clergy, write to Martin’s superiors. Friend me on Facebook and I’ll give you all the addresses, which I got online at www.ImDisgustedwiththeChurch.com. Better yet, stop buying his books.
Me: I’m sorry I said “Look.” To clarify: I believe that Jesus Christ is fully human and fully divine. I simply wanted to avoid debating something about my personal spiritual life.
Just got a Google alert about “debating” and “Catholic” and came to this site. I didn't read your original post but I couldn’t believe your last comment. I had to read it twice. You’re kidding, right, James? You want to "avoid debate"? I guess that’s just what the Vatican wants priests to do…stifle any legitimate discussion of anything remotely controversial…stop people from thinking! That’s the kind of narrow-minded, anti-intellectual, soul-destroying attitude that I had thought (falsely) died with the Inquisition. (Which I just read about in an eye-opening book called The Church is Your Enemy, which you’re probably not allowed to read.) All you Jesuits take your marching orders from the pope anyway, don’t you? I’ve read all about your secret fourth vow, your “vow of blind obedience” to the pope, and how you’re not allowed to think on your own…what rot. The Pope’s Marines? I understand that Hitler’s S.S. was based on your group. Not surprising. I read that last night on www.WhoAreThePopesMarines.com. (And I saw it on a revealing documentary on The History Channel 2.) It goes without saying that you parrot anything, no matter how offensive or ridiculous or oppressive, that the Vatican or your superiors tell you. Part of that is, as I can see from your comment above…no debate. No wonder people are forced to leave the church…you don’t let them think! I bet you hate women, too.
Me: I don’t mean to stifle debate. By the way, our fourth vow is obedience to the pope “with regard to the missions.” It has to do more with Jesuits being available to places the pope wants to send us.
I saw a link to this appalling comment on www.WeAloneAreTheTrueChurch.com. Are you saying that you’re not obedient to the Supreme Pontiff? How can you even still considered a priest (sacerdos) in good standing? I’ll wager you that the Prefect of the Congregation for Religious would like to know about your inane idea of “obedience.” Am I correct in stating that you believe that Jesuits may pick and choose those doctrines to which they are obedient? Give me a good, old-fashioned Jesuit, a real Jesuit, of the kind that did not quail to speak the Truth, the kind that taught real Roman Catholicism, not the hippy-dippy, liberal, wishy-washy, Cafeteria Catholics which your last comment reveals that you so obviously are. Are you not deeply ashamed of yourself? Why don’t you hang up your Roman collar? I’ve been reading about your order on wwwww.IReallyHateLiberalJesuits.com, yes, all about the group that in days past was known as the Societas Jesu. (That means Society of Jesus, just in case, like most Jesuits, you "have no Latin.")I also read somewhere that your vocations are plummeting. I cannot say that I’m in the least bit surprised. It is thanks to “priests” like you who have blithely forgotten what it means to be fully obedient to the Magisterium. When I think of the glorious history of the Jesuit saints and martyrs (you might want to read some day about the North American Martyrs, when you're not busy opposing the church), and how we ended up with Jesuits like you today, I should feel less of a man were I not to weep bitter tears. For my part, I devoutly thank God on my knees every night that there are still a few real religious orders left which are fully obedient to the Roman Catholic Church. Rest assured that the Congregation will be receiving my letter quoting your last outrageous comment. And I pray that it is your "last" comment, if you get what I'm saying.
Me: I’m not sure how a simple comment degenerated into argument. Can we give one another the benefit of the doubt?
Father, I just saw your last comment when I stumbled upon this page. I didn't read your original post since I'm too busy right now, but I want to say this: That’s what people say when they are afraid of the facts. “Give people the benefit of the doubt.” Right. That’s the kind of squishy, feel-good, namby-pamby drivel that people say when they’re frightened of being proven wrong. So what are you afraid of?
Me: I’m not afraid of anything.
Then why aren’t you ready to attack and judge and condemn your fellow human beings?
Me: I love Jesus.
"How can we live in harmony? First we need to know we are all madly in love with the same God." St. Thomas Aquinas (as paraphrased by Daniel Ladinsky)
I love Jesus, too.
I love him too.
For a history of the Church with a separate lecture on the Jesuits, borrow from the library or a friend or buy the ''History of the Catholic Church'', a Teaching Company Course. Lots of beauty, lots of warts taught by a convert and is especially favorable to the Jesuits.
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=6640
Also a course on heresy is taught by St. Louis University professor, Thomas Madden. It is in the Modern Scholar series. If one is interested in Church history and Church thought, he is a incredible source for the history of The Church. Here are the list of courses he has done for the Modern Scholar series, most of which have to do with the Church and its history.
http://www.recordedbooks.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=scholar.show_professors&prof_id=42
So all Father Martin has to do is point the people in his life to The Great Courses and the Modern Scholar series of Thomas Madden and see which category you fit into.
This is really good and timely and I am so glad you have called out all those other people regarding their petty concerns. If you don't mind, I would just want to correct one thing. I noticed there were no biblical references in the article. There are only references to Councils and the Catechism! Don't Jesuit priests care about the Bible? Do they even consult the Bible?
Thank YOU!
Keep going...
This syndrome has been around for a while...
Damned if you do and damned if you don't...
You know it well: Check out Matthew 11:16-19...
Someone has to invent a spiritual laxative and rediscover the joy of being Catholic...
Strawmanship at its very keenest.
We are all the heroes of our own stories.
If only my verbal opponents really were as dumb as I imagined them to be in my head.
Lets outlaw critical thought now!!!!
The famous, "somebody is wrong on the Internet!" impulse clearly extends in further than I thought.
I Think David's comment at 11 is wonderful.
"One thing that encourages the unpleasant disputatiousness has to do with the lack of sensory feedback. At the very most, we can see and hear our interlocutors, but even that seeing and hearing is a primitive simulacrum of what it would be if the people we're talking with were in the same physical place as we. "
There are times I wish I could see and hear someone make a comment so I could hear the tone or see the hesitation. Other times I wish they could see me making a bitter hateful comment.
The ability to not see how your rude remarks "land" upon your audience's ear enables people to write horrible things.
I just read some vicious comments on a blog and I wondered if I contacted this person via video conference would he say the same.
Blessed Easter! =-)
These sorts of self-righteous, uncharitable and often anti-social behaviors were precisely what made me very weary of American Catholics when I first came to this country. Thankfully American Catholics are not all like this, but the screaming (not talking) heads really seem to dominate Catholic discourse these days. God help us!
Most of all, however, it highlights the fact that nothing beats cara-a-cara interaction because tone, facial expression, body language, etc. (all integral parts of human communication) are absent in blog posts, tweets, etc. So, what when writes and reads is fraught with so much misunderstanding that what would take two minutes to clarify in a face-to-face conversation sometimes takes 100 comments on a blog.
BTW, I loved your recent book! Bravo.
Time to add a new book - Judges II - to the Bible, considering the proliferation of the species. It would serve as the unquestionable, authoritative Scriptural source for the rituals, apothegms, and axioms established by common usage and save bandwidth in the process. Imagine the possibilities:
Righteous Commenter: Judges II 27:2 Judges II 3:11? Judges II 194:6!
Me: ?
Righteous Commenter: Judges II 18:21??? Judges II 41:8! Judges II 318:23! Judges II 2:1!!!
Me: ??
etc.
Really appreciated your contribution today - very thoughtful!
I am hastening now to change the name of my blog to I Alone Am the True Church, which you people would have beaten me to if the Jesuits were as smart as they crack themselves up to be. Thanks for making my day!
Fr. Jim, thank you for all you do to bring faith, reason, humor and relevance to your followers. I very much appreciate your work.
But 'tis true of most commentary/discourse on the internet, unfortunately, regardless of the subject matter. All this social media stuff is making us totally socially inept rather than fostering understanding.
Spot on.
Sometime, along in lilfe, many of us are able to love ourselves knowing all of our warts and faults and failures and come to love our parents in all their imperfections. Is it possible to also come to love our Church in its human-divine essence? And loving, honoring and respecting our fellow sisters and brothers in faith? Pope Benedict has said that the church is always in need of purification. Can we work toward that purification in humble charity?
I don't think Fr. Jim was trying to make his hecklers look dumb. If anything, he went out of his way to demonstrate how well-informed they are. If they share any less-than-endearing quality, it's a short fuse.
For that matter, I don't get the impression he dismisses all critical readers as cranks. I've seen him on Facebook, refereeing debates among some very intense, very opinionated people. Provided nobody goes for anyone else's jugular, he moderates the excbanges with good grace and good humor.
I am sure that you are right in what you wrote.
As others have pointed out David @11 summarized all of this quite well.
The argumentation on the net is a couple of notches below that of faccia a faccia dialogue.
I have learned many things on the net and also from Fr Martin but it is difficult to separate the critical faculty from emotions and without the civilizing effect of a face before us we may not be as reflective as we like to think we are.
There's an even more basic reason, I think. Society imposes taboos on discussions of sex, politics and religion for good reason - people tend to take their own views on these subjects very seriously. In a sense, it's impossible to have a minor disagreement on any of them; when you're dealing in absolutes, any disagreement is, ipso facto, enormous.
That's especially true when one party believes the other to be speaking from a place of privilege, which is usually the case in intra-Church disputes. Broadly, progressives believe conservatives have marginalized them since John Paul II became pope. Meanwhile, conservatives believe they've been so marginalized in the general culture that any advantage they currently enjoy in the Church counts for nothing. If you see yourself as a cornered beast, then naturally you're going to fight like one.
Here's one thing nobody's brought up: some Catholics may go for each other's throats, but they do it much more decorously than anyone else. If you don't believe me, check out Salon's combox sometime. We may throw around terms like ''syncretist,'' ''relativist'' and ''Smoke of Satan''; out in the ol' saeculum, people just tell each other to go bleep themselves.
So glad you're here.
I agree that there's no way most normal people could make this stuff UP so "IT" must be true! Whether we're Catholic and/or catholic, it is sad that some of the funniest material can be found to be so real nowadays! :(
I hear ya sinner vic! That's only because today is Friday, April the 13 in the year of our Lord 2012.
Who said in so many words that, "The more things change, the more they stay the same".
I'll close by saying that from what I've read, you've obviously got some cells with very powerful tough spiritual skin like Saint Martin I. had during the good old days!:)
Peace
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theanchoress/2012/04/12/successful-satire-always-bites-a-little/
In addition, this article seems to spend a disproportionate amount of time making of those Catholics who are traditional and spend time learning about the history of their Church. (''Be wise as serpents, etc'') This attitude seems representive of many Jesuits I have come into contact with. It is truly unfortunate that sometimes the stereotype is 100% correct
Thanks for the thoughts. It made me smile. It also made me think...It is very easy to read a text through our own rose-colored glasses (BTW: some of my glasses actually do have rose colored lenses :-) ). Our society runs in at ever increasing pace. Such fast-paced living does not help any of us take the time to carefully read or listen to someone else. I even find it with my children. With my 18-year old, for example. I get 3 words of my sentence out and he is already commenting on that snip rather than listening to my entire sentence. Often what he comments on is different than the idea I was trying to express. There is a growing expectation of instant gratificatoin or instant communication,and this is contributing to a lack of patience (in my opinion) and lack of really listening. those activties take time, and many people do not want to take the time. Comment #41 also seems to illustrate your point. ;-) Enough said
Jim
Wonderful send-ups, with the obligatory catechism citations, aspersions on the caliber of one's faith and character, trigger happy comebacks, self-righteousness personified, etc, etc, etc, (in Yul Brynner staccato).
Now, if only chanceries would extend some benign neglect to all those policing reports they receive.
(Satire alert) I, of course, am perfect, and crush the humorless, ignorant opposition with irrefutable scholarship.
And what about his MOTHER, his FATHER, his STEP-FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT?
No time for them? Well of course not, cuz you're a JESUit. It even sounds like JESUS!
You bloody CHRISTOMONIST, you!
Have a nice day.
Sincerely yours in CHRIST!
;@}
p.s. And stay out of my way in the CHURCH PARKING LOT!
Daniel #41. You maybe have not spent enough time on liberal websites. We can be every bit as obnoxious with our theological, scriptural, and historical knowlege. That's what makes Catholic debates so much fun and so educational and so elitist.
Is it safe to end with "I love Jesus"?