On Oct. 24, Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernández held a meeting with participants in the synod on Synodality to discuss the work of Study Group 5, which had been tasked with examining “some theological and canonical questions concerning specific ministerial forms,” including “theological and pastoral research on the access of women to the diaconate.” The Oct. 24 meeting was scheduled after synod delegates expressed displeasure that neither Cardinal Fernández nor any members of Study Group 5 had attended an Oct. 18 meeting where they had expected to have their questions about the study group’s work and membership answered.
[Report: Cardinal Fernández faced tough questions at synod meeting on women’s ministries]
In the interest of transparency, the Oct. 24 meeting was recorded and released to the public the following day. It is available to stream here. No transcript or official translation of the meeting—which included interventions in four languages—has been provided, so the staff of America has compiled this transcription and English translation of the audio released by the Vatican. It is unclear whether this audio has been edited, as it does skip in some places.
This transcript and translation were produced with the help of A.I. tools and verified by America staff members. America consulted with three synod delegates who attended the meeting to confirm the names of any speakers who did not identify themselves in the meeting.
This transcript has been edited for clarity. We have removed the English translation summaries provided by Father Andrew Liaugminas, an official of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, during the meeting to avoid repetition of content. The places where Father Liaugminas provided translation are marked in the transcript. Short moments of debate over whom will speak next have also been removed.
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Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernández, prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith
Good evening. In the name of the Father, of the Son, of the Holy Spirit. We ask you, Lord Jesus, to be present in our midst. We need your light, your guidance. We want to know your will. And we ask you to enlighten each one of us so that together we can discover a little more about your ways. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
All
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
Paolo Ruffini, prefect of the Dicastery for Communications
Good evening, welcome to this room of the Dicastery [for Communications], the communication room [former press hall] that gladly hosts all of you from the synod. I would say that we can proceed. I am a bit of a moderator, but I am not a moderator. I would ask you to raise your hand if you would like to ask questions. Questions for His Eminence? Raise your hand. There is a microphone.
Cardinal Fernández
Questions or proposals.
Paolo Ruffini
Questions, proposals, anything. This is a moment of reciprocated listening. Some of you I know, others I don’t. Say who you are. We’ll welcome you three at a time.
I don’t know if His Eminence would like to say something first? We’ll start directly by listening to you [synod participants], which is the reason we are here. Raise your hand so someone can pass you the microphone. We’ll welcome you three at a time. We have a little time for three at a time.
[Pause.] Nobody wants to break the ice.
Cardinal Fernández
If you don’t have any questions, [then] if you have any experiences to share, any ideas that may be useful to us, that would be fine.
Unidentified Speaker
It’s not a question. I think we should refresh our minds a little bit about what we are here for. They told us two days ago and yesterday. But you invited us, if I’m not mistaken, cardinal. So you break the ice, and then we [will] throw ourselves into it.
Cardinal-elect Pablo Virgilio David, president of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of the Philippines
Mine is not a question but a proposition. I know that by the end of the synod, usually we are consulted about the possible topic for the next synod. I wonder if instead of giving this topic to the study group, we can propose it to be the topic for the next synod. Like, you know, “special questions on the ordained ministry.” Thank you.
Sorry, I meant to add, special questions including the possibility of opening the ordained presbytery to fidates [the faithful]. Special questions related to the ordained ministry. Thank you.
Austen Ivereigh, papal biographer
Good afternoon. I’ll ask the question first in Spanish and then in English to translate.
Being present in the meeting of Group 5 the other day, it seemed to me that there was a general question that we thought had not received a good response so far. It is understood that the way of proceeding of Group 5 is by nature different from the other study groups; [it is] that of the Dicastery [for the Doctrine of the Faith]. But many people did not understand, it seems to me, why it is necessary to work like this, and if it would be possible to work in a more synodal way. You said in the statement the other day [referring to Cardinal Fernández’s Oct. 21 communiqué] that we could know a little more about who will be working on the subject, the faces and the names. I do think that this could be useful.
[Switches to English] I have just asked, saying that it seemed to me from the other day that many people wanted to know why Group 5 was proceeding in a way that was different from the other study groups. And so I am inviting the cardinal to explain a bit why. And also he did say that he would let us know a little bit about who will be working in the group, names and faces. So I was inviting him to share that with us. Thank you.
Cardinal Fernández
On the themes of the next synod, I don’t know what the procedures foreseen are to propose the next themes. It’s not my [area of] competence. But maybe it will be one of the proposed themes.
On Group 5, the theme of the role of women in the churches [and] also thinking about ministerial possibilities was a subject entrusted to the dicastery, before the request of the synod. Then the need of the synod appeared, and in order to deepen this, the conclusion was that instead of making two different groups, it remained up to the dicastery, but listening to the synod and in dialogue with the synod secretary. And so we did it. Every now and then we met with Cardinal [Mario] Grech to listen to the concerns [from the synod secretariat].
In the case of the dicastery, it is not a group of five or six people, it is the whole dicastery that works. And if we get [“one gets”] to a document, and we bring it to the Holy Father, and he approves, it becomes a [part of the] ordinary Magisterium, like a document made by the pope. So it has a very particular value, this text.
The people, who are the people? The first moment, which is very important, is called consultation. And the dicastery has a large group of men and women consultants. A large group. We have all the consultants, and we have the possibility to send proposals. And then we sent to the women of this consultation [group], the women consultants, a special request to participate more actively, to write, to make proposals, etc.
Do you need a translation in English?
[Father Andrew Liaugminas, an American official of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, translates.]
[Cardinal Fernández resumes:] You can find the consultors because all of the names have been given, and some time ago another 28 new consultors were appointed, and that was published. Here are some names
to make it quick:
- [Rev.] Maurizio Gronchi [professor of Christology at the Pontifical Urbanian University]
- [Msgr.] Piero Coda [secretary general of the International Theological Commission]
- Dario Vitali [professor of theology at the Pontifical Gregorian University]
- Maurizio Faggioni [O.F.M., professor at the Pontifical Lateran University]
- His Eminence [Cardinal Gianfranco] Ghirlanda [S.J.]
- Stella Morra [extraordinary professor at the Pontifical Gregorian University]
- Núria Calduch i Benages [secretary of the Pontifical Biblical Commission]
- Michelina Tenace [emeritus professor of dogmatic and fundamental theology at the Pontifical Gregorian University]
- Benedetta Rossi [a Missionary of Mary, associate professor at the Biblical Faculty of the Pontifical Biblical Institute, who was one of the new appointees to the Dicastery this year. All the names that follow on this list were appointed in September 2024]
- Donatella Abignente [emeritus professor at the Pontifical Theological Faculty of Southern Italy]
- Claudia Leal Luna, [full professor at the Pontifical “Saint John Paul II” Theological Institute for Marriage and Family Science]
- Sandra Mazzolini [dean of the Faculty of Missiology of the Pontifical Urbaniana University in Rome]
- Ignazia Siviglia [emeritus professor at the Pontifical “Saint John the Evangelist” Theological Faculty of Sicily in Palermo]
- Maurizio Chiodi [full professor at the Pontifical “John Paul II” Theological Institute for Marriage and Family Science]
- Aristide Fumagalli [full professor at the Theological Faculty of Northern Italy]
- Juan Manuel Granados Rojas [S.J., full professor at the Biblical Faculty of the Pontifical Biblical Institute]
- Mario Bracci [associate professor at the Faculty of Theology of the Pontifical Urbaniana University], etc.
These are some of the names.
When they respond, if we see that there is a sufficient base to work, we start working with that material. If we see that there is still something missing, we send a new letter asking to develop some issues that are not well developed, issues that need a new development. We ask several consultants again.
There are women, of course, who are the most important in this topic, but, for example, Cardinal Ghirlanda has studied very well a topic that would be very important here: The topic is the difference between Holy Orders and power [potestas]. That is, Holy Orders and power are not necessarily connected. And this is a very important topic to develop: the question of the laity, who can also have
an authority, a guiding mission in the communities. In this case, Ghirlanda is not a woman, but can really be very helpful on this topic.
When there is this base, you can also have an assembly with the consultants. They can be called to the dicastery for a day, and an assembly is made on Mondays, which is the fixed [scheduled] day for the assembly.
[Pause for translation.]
And we have a meeting of the dicastery before to listen to them twice. We have made two ordinary assemblies with them and they are, for example, Cardinal Schoenborn, Bishop Fisichella, Bishop Bruno Forte, Cardinal Guggerotti, and not long ago were appointed Cardinal José Tolentino de Mendonça, who was [made] cardinal, and Cardinal Semeraro, and surely some others will be added after the next consistory [on Dec. 7]. And with them, the meeting is usually on Wednesdays. [Because of] that, [the meeting] is called “Feria Quarta,” the fourth day, which is Wednesday. And they have already been listened to, as I said, twice.
Then, among the superiors of the dicastery, there is me, but the work is coordinated by the secretary of the doctrinal section, Armando Matteo, with the office head Riccardo Bollatti. And then there are the officers, but I won’t give the names of the officers, because they [do things like] send the letters, do a review of a book, translate a text, etc. They are employees of the dicastery, and that’s why I don’t think it’s necessary to give those names, [because] this is about the members.
But about the procedures: After the work of the consultation, when there is enough material, they make a summary with the most important topics, and they make the “congresses,” which are meetings where they also vote. They make the votes to move forward.
They always blame me for any document, as you may know if you read the news. But it’s not that I write what I like and do it alone. There is a procedure that, in my opinion, is quite synodal in itself.
[Pause for translation.]
An important point on the “Feria Quarta,” the ordinary assembly, is that there are bishops from different parts of the world there who have different visions according to [their] cultural context: for example, from Australia, from Brazil, from Sudan, from Ghana and different countries.
[Pause for translation.]
In this case, our idea is to do an even broader consultation, [to] ask for the views of people from, for example, associations of women religious or institutes that are working for the empowerment of lay people who already have an experience and work, etc. So we want to do a more open consultation at this point where the members of the synod can also send work done by them or by other people they know and can help.
[Pause for translation.]
Forgive me if my responses were a little long, but it seems to me necessary that you understand better how we work.
Msgr. Alphonse Borras, Belgian theologian and canonist
[I am] from Belgium. Listening to the details that you have exposited on the functioning of your dicastery, I would like to return to the connection of these teams that work around you on the theme of the commitment of women in the church, and in particular on the question of the possible orders of women for the diaconate or the priesthood. Two reflections and a third. The first two are related to the composition and the other to the themes.
[On] the composition: listening to the composition of your collaborators, there is a majority, a huge majority, of Italians. I understand that [with you] being all here in Rome it is easier to consult a Roman, but this is a fundamental question that deserves to be taken seriously, because—[and] we have also seen it in the development of the synodal process—there is a strong Italian presence that does not favor, let’s say, the expressions—because it is already numerically important—of other areas, not only [various] linguistic [expressions], but [various] cultural [expressions].
Second reflection on this composition: Even if there are many collaborators, I am not convinced that everyone, indeed perhaps just a majority, knows these more specific questions of ordination, of the ordination to the diaconate or the priesthood and episcopate in relation to the questions of women. It is true that Cardinal Ghirlanda has mentioned [it in his work], but this is a topic with which others among us have already worked, and I think that there is no need to discuss this issue. It is rather about the fact of ordination itself, and not only the possible vicarious participation [of women] or delegation of the jurisdiction.
So, these are two questions that come to me: the composition and the themes. I am not convinced that many of [the dicastery’s] collaborators know this topic. So I would like some clarifications. The moment is for the future because if we go on in this way, I do not think we can hear other voices on these topics, on which many of us have already written, therefore, investigated and published. Thank you.
Paolo Ruffini
Thank you. There was another question there.
Agbonkhianmeghe Orobator, S.J., dean of the Jesuit School of Theology of Santa Clara University
Thank you very much. My name is Agbonkhianmeghe Orobator. I am a Jesuit. I am the dean of the Jesuit School of Theology of Santa Clara University. I have submitted two documents, proposals to address to the cardinal.
I have one comment and a question. I am sorry if I am repeating something that has been said already because I am handicapped because of the language. But earlier onI thought I heard that in terms of the composition of the group that works on this question, it is representative of the entire church, the global church. And yet when I look at the list of 28 consultants, most of them are Italian priests. And there are six women, two religious, two lay, and four, two lay men. I am sure maybe I am reading the names incorrectly or their provenances. I don’t think I have seen anybody from Africa or Madagascar represented in this group of consultants. So the idea that it is consultative and representative leaves me a little bit concerned, given the fact that this was supposed to proceed synodally.
Now to my question, which relates to the comment that you made on the first working day of the synod. You said, and I am quoting, “Based on the analysis conducted so far, which also takes into account the work done by the two commissions established by Pope Francis on the female diaconate, the dicastery judges that there is still no room for a positive decision by the Magisterium regarding the access of women to the diaconate.”
It is that phrase, “the dicastery judges,” that caught my attention. I believe that in making that judgment,
you must have seen evidence, heard testimonies. And so I am asking myself, what evidence, what testimony, what material elements have been available to the dicastery? And do these include outcomes of the two study commissions, which maybe you are privy to?
And then on the 19th of October, you also made a statement in the aula. And what struck me very strongly was the use of the term “maturation.” Maturation. That this theme is not mature enough. And I like fruits. I eat a lot of fruits. And when I keep fruits to ripen and mature, I look for signs, the change in color, maybe the aroma, maybe the texture. So my question is, what are those signs, those norms, those principles that we should be looking for, that you are looking for, to really judge that, yes, now is the time that we can say this is mature.
Because if we don’t have those principles, norms and signs, we could be doing this for the rest of our lives. Thank you.
[Applause breaks out.]
Cardinal Fernández
Well, the representation of the wider world is found in the “Feria Quarta” [assembly], where there are two African bishops, for example. The consultation is composed rather of Italians because that facilitates assemblies where we can discuss, where the consultants can discuss among themselves. But [for] certain themes that require a more universal vision, the consultation opens up, and this is what we want to do now and what we have begun to do. That is, even if they have not been appointed consultants, we send the consultation to other people.
In this theme [of women’s ministries], for us, for example, the experience of the Amazon is very important, because in the Amazon there is an experience of community guided by women, without any priest [or one] who appears around every 10 years, and this experience for us is very important, and we have already consulted some women—who are not the ones who work in the communities, because [those women] do not appear [to the] outside [world]—but they belong to groups of lay people who constantly visit the communities, and they can bring us this experience, as I said, to start from the pastoral reality and not from an abstract idea, to start from the concrete reality. I have also spoken with Archbishop [Leonardo Ulrich] Steiner, [O.F.M., Archbishop of Manaus, Brazil], who will also help us in this regard.
We also know that in Africa, in places, there are experiences that are not the same, that are different, but that can help us, also in Indonesia and in other places. So, we would like to ask the help of those people, because there are many things that are not in the European books that we read, which can only be found in the lives of this vast and large world, and it is not easy to collect those wider testimonies so that our work is universal. For this concrete theme, the consultation becomes much more open, much more open.
[Pause for translation.]
First, I must say that the fundamental purpose of this “group,” let’s say, is the theme of the role of women in the church. It’s not the diaconate. Why? Because in reality, the material that arrived in the consultation of the synod asked, above all, to work a lot on the role of women in the church. The diaconate was a theme that came out of some parts, but it wasn’t the main theme. So the main theme of our work is the role of women in the church.
And at this point, I should say that I myself, before coming here to the dicastery, I was parish priest of the outskirts and then bishop of a diocese. And there I listened to many women who have reprimands against the church and who want a clearer possibility of participation. Who sometimes do not even feel listened to, who are like parish servants, etc. I can say that these voices come from many parts.
I think of the theologian women, who in some parts of the world do not have the possibility of development nor the true freedom of theological work. To the women who have a great capacity to lead community processes, who have great gifts to guide communities, to coordinate great missionary initiatives, but they do not find a place because life is made up of men.
Or to the women who have a great capacity for advice, I do not mean listening, but advice, spiritual guidance, like the best of the spiritual consultants or directors, but who are not accepted because they do not have Holy Orders.
I think of the lay women of all cultures who ask the church for a greater space and who do not ask for the diaconate. They ask for a possibility to have authority, to be listened to, to be able to develop their charisms and their capacities.
From this point of view, we see the need to take very concrete steps on the role of women in the church, and most of them do not ask or want the diaconate, which for them would also be overwhelming for their secular work, with the freedom that this work presupposes.
I say from this point of view, our work is above all to try to go ahead with very concrete steps on the role of women in the church, rather than on the diaconate.
As I said, on the diaconate there is still in force the commission of Cardinal [Giuseppe] Petrocchi, who has already summoned the members for the next few months, with the idea of receiving materials and opinions and suggestions to resume the work of the commission with more force, with more energy and decision, listening to what can come from the synod and from the world.
[Pause for translation.]
In terms of this work, we are already receiving many proposals. What I was saying earlier about the Amazon is a reality because many people have already spoken to me and have promised to send me very interesting material. Then I received, for example, a letter from a very classical cardinal who says, “It seems to me that it would be necessary to establish a ministry for women with a rich content of tasks and functions, and that it should be established with a well-visible ritual sign, etc.” Then a nun wrote to me, “The [audio skips] church is associated with the ordained ministry, therefore clerical and male. It is crucial to clarify in what areas in the church authority and leadership are triggered by the ordained ministry and which, instead, are not. The tasks and functions of guidance do not require the ordained ministry as much as specific competences and personal attitudes. Such deepening will help us to be a more synodal Church.”
These are just examples of many material letters that have arrived in these days, where they want to work in this line of work that seems to have a certain consensus in different sectors. With this consensus, it is easier to move forward, it is easier to be able to take concrete steps.
[Pause for translation.]
This expression, that “The theme of the dicastery for women is not mature to make a decision today,” is a phrase of the pope, not mine. That is why he does not want to close the issue of the diaconate. He says that we can still study with patience, without obsession, without haste. We can continue to study and this is very important. But he thinks that things are not yet mature.
He certainly has received some material from the [previous study] commissions [on women deacons], the commissions that have been there and that continue. And the conclusions we will then make public, perhaps by giving some votes, some details. But the conclusions are more or less these: That things are not absolutely clear, that they cannot now conclude, more or less that is the partial conclusion.
But we continue to work. And if a material arrives that presents some new things, that will help us to move forward on this topic.
But, even if I have not studied this material of the two commissions, I have seen something. With the little time I had, I have seen something of this material. There are, on the one hand, the historical studies. And there is a discussion. There are those who affirm that, in certain cases, they [women] have been ordained. There is another opinion of historians, equally respectable, that says that it was not really an ordination, that it was a ceremony of blessing, etc. And among the historians, there are these different opinions.
Now I ask you: If we discover that there were in other centuries, women who preached during the Mass and they were not ordained, is this worth less? [If] they were lay people, is it worth less that they were deaconesses? If we discover that there were women with great authority in the communities and also in a region of the church, of the planet, an authority that even the priests did not have, is this information worth less if they had not been ordained? If they were lay people? Is it worth less?
And here I understand when the pope says not to clericalize. How do you say it in Italian? Not to clericalize. If they were not ordained, is it worth less? Or does it help us even more to think about the empowerment of lay people? And for this we think that there is a primary concern, that of the place of women in the church, and a secondary concern that has its importance, but is not the center—that is, that of the diaconate.
[Pause for translation.]
And then there’s the theological discussion. There are two different lines here. One that insists that the ordination is not to the sacerdocium but to the ministerium. And that opens a possibility to the feminine diaconate. Another way, another line [of thinking], insists on the unity of Holy Orders, which is not three degrees [deacon, priest, bishop], but a single sacrament. And from this point of view, one does not accept the feminine diaconate easily. I’ll summarize like this very quickly, because there is no time. But these two ways still have to deepen the proposal and above all to enter into dialogue.
Not as it happened in the De Auxiliis Controversy on grace, where they condemned each other mutually or treated each other like stupid fools. There must be the possibility of listening to one another and discussing. I think that the commission that studies the diaconate could be helped by the International Theological Commission, the Academy of Theology, other organizations, faculties, etc., by organizing some congresses or convenings to meet and discuss a little more.
If you ask me my personal opinion, I can give it as a theologian, not as a prefect. Remember that [Cardinal Josef] Ratzinger also did it, didn’t he? Every now and then he said something and it became clear, not as a prefect, but as a [inaudible]. I believe that the foundations for the “no” to the female diaconate are reasonable, but they are not sufficient. The foundations for the no. The reasons for the yes are not enough to respond to negative opinions.
With this sincere opinion, no one is happy, right? They give me [grief] from the right and from the left. The conservatives will say, “He is a fool who has not understood that it is impossible to order deacons that contradict the law, the dogmas, the tradition, etc.” The progressives will say that I have not understood that there is nothing logical or reasonable in the refusal to ordain [women deacons], that it is only a medieval fissismo [a biological theory that denies evolution], etc.
But, instead, I am very convinced that we cannot wait to take clear steps forward for an empowerment of women in the church, distinguishing what is absolutely inseparable in Holy Orders from what is not. At this point, instead, I believe that we must already go forward without waiting. This is the idea of the work of this Group 5.
Tricia Bruce, associate professor of sociology at Maryville College
My name is Tricia Bruce, and I’m a sociologist and consultor to the general secretariat. Thank you for your time today. Among the many studies that I have done personally on the church, particularly in the U.S. context, studies on parishes, movements, [inaudible] and the like, I and my team have interviewed more than 100 women who have themselves served the church in various roles that were available to them outside of ordination in order to meet the needs of their communities.
Inside those interviews, you hear deep accounts of an inability to meet the existing roles that are available to them because they encounter priests or bishops who are not amenable to their service in the church or parishes that don’t offer contexts that enable them to do the work that they are doing and the work that they are called to do. They face constraints, they get creative, and sometimes they change contexts in order to meet the needs of the church.
The reason I mention this, too, is because when I hear that the emphasis comes so strongly on roles and pathways, on roles and empowerment, I wonder, too, about what structures and what pathways can also be offered so that even existing roles for women can in fact be fulfilled, which is more than about just women.
One last piece of this to add. In addition to the interviews that I’ve done with women, I led the qualitative portion of the National Study of the Catholic Priesthood in the U.S. context, 104 interviews with priests. We asked a similar question across the interviews with women and the interviews with men. That question being, what advice would you give to a younger counterpart?
From men in the priesthood, one of the happiest professions—of course lots of burnout and struggle therein, but—the advice was generally: “Follow, go, do. I will help you discern, I will support you, I will build you up. This is the happiest possible, most meaningful life you can pursue.”
From women who had activated their call in the context of the church, the advice they gave sometimes was, “Run away, brace yourself, find a community to support you.” So as this group [five] moves toward looking [at] what the roles of women are in the church, I would advise a special emphasis on building up structures of support such that women can in fact live into the very roles that they’re called [to] and hope that that, too, would be a product of this work. Thank you.
Hervé Legrand, O.P., professor emeritus at the Institut Catholique de Paris
Your Eminence, I thank you very much for the precious clarifications that you have given, and in particular, I would like to intervene on three or four points.
The first would be the consultation that you wish to become larger and larger, and this is extremely happy [news], but I have a question. It is this. It is always the authority that chooses its experts, and some important components of the life of the church seemed absent from what you suggested. [Including] these may have improved things a little, by [avoiding] this suspicion that the truth is not the truth [chosen by] the authority, but that it is the authority of the truth that works.
[Pause for translation by a woman volunteer from French to Italian]
The category [that is missing from the consultation is that] of theology. The faculties of theology could also be one of the protagonists of the question: namely, that when we need a specialist, that it is not the specialist of one who has the authority. There are 30 faculties of theology across the globe. We have a particular question on the ordination of Christians to the diaconate. Who are the specialists that you have in-house? And…does your congregation remain free to choose among the experts? You are entirely free to propose the question to those that have been [asked], but I believe that this will ease things a lot, and I will conclude with three points.
The first is…
[Pause for translation]
If there is a precise question, a question in the Holy Orders of the day, the Orders of the Christians, as deaconesses or deacons, do you have specialists in your faculty [on this]? Send us the names of your specialists. And the congregation remains free to choose between them. It will ease [the] current tension between theology [faculties] and the Magisterium.
I give precise examples, not abstract ones. I am a student of the Cardinal [Jean Jérôme] Hamer, [O.P.,] who was secretary of the [then-]Congregation for the Faith. When he was in this position, he consulted the Biblical Commission, the Pontifical Biblical Commission, which is composed of exegetes who trust in the Holy See and are known for their scien[tific rigor]. And they have faith. The result in 1971 was this. They concluded that if there is no objection [to women deacons] in the New Testament, that this issue cannot be decided on the basis of the New Testament; it was a theological issue in itself.
And so, the outcome was that this consultation “never took place.” It took place, but officially it never took place. It’s an extreme example, but I think there are suspicions that are similar to this [today].
And I draw three conclusions, which are suggestions that I am authorized to make, although I have no title to make them. The first suggestion, which could improve things a lot, would be, first of all, that [this] is not about the ordination of women. It is about the ordination of baptized Christians. And all the confusion comes from the question of feminism. We ourselves give importance to the exaggerated importance of feminism by talking about the ordination of women and not the ordination of Christians. These are two completely different questions.
The second suggestion is that theologians, that is, the theological corporation, should have enough wisdom, that they do not often have, to know that they do not enter into pastoral questions. What can be clear in theology can be a very difficult question pastorally. And in particular for the ordination of women, because of the very important differences in cultures. Our women give much importance to women, not for moral reasons—we are not better than our fathers—but [because] there are social changes like progress in medicine, women’s training and the salaried work of women that have made the relationships between men and women change, and we need to live this change in a Christian way.
I have been [speaking] too long. I would like to be brief and also to give the opportunity to others to make their last propositions.
Cardinal Fernández
Regarding the consultation, you say that it is the authority that decides who consults. But in this case, I must say that there are many initiatives that come without having been asked [for], and I am sure that, like the ones that have come, there will be many more. I gave the example of the Amazon, which immediately organized itself to send material to help us understand things that we do not understand.
In this case, I would like to say that I think there is a distinction. If we talk about the diaconate, theological reflection is fundamental, and I agree that we must consult the faculties of theology, especially the women who are in the faculties of theology. When we talk about the broader issue of the position of women in the church, it is not enough for the theologians. We need to listen to the experiences that perhaps have not yet been theologically thematicized, but that are theological places as a vital and pastoral experience, and that have so much to tell us. So, in my opinion, this broadness of the consultation on the subject of the diaconate must be referred especially to theologians, certainly, but on the subject of the role of women in the church it must be even broader and respect the good experiences that exist in the world.
On the other hand, I agree that there are many issues connected to the issue. In this sense, they asked about the existing structures, because even if decisions are made, the existing structures, the clerical style, prevent us from moving forward. I gave some examples the other day, for example, the possibility of the catechistic ministry, which could be a much broader ministry. Instead, the episcopal conferences did not choose this path [of instituting catechists], which was possible, they did not accept it. Some, but what percentage is there in the world? 1 percent, right?
So, there was a possibility, but the style of the church, the clerical structure, did not allow the possibilities that opened to develop. And this is another problem that we must face. And like this, there are other issues that are not, let’s say, directly practical, but that are important. For example, to dismantle
is what is often said in the church about the feminine nature, that women have their own genius, and that this genius is sweetness, closeness, and these characteristics, these stereotypes of women. As for man, who is the strong one, who decides, who goes on, this [idea] is really very strong in the church, and we must dismantle it.
Then the reflection must also take care of these problems that require of us a different development. Not only to arrive at very practical conclusions that we want, but also to dismantle these theological, cultural problems, etc.
You know that one of the ways developed by theologians is the Balthasarian one on the “Marian dimension” of the church, right? There are many theologians who still insist [on this identification of women with the “Marian dimension” and men with the “Petrine dimension” of the church]. Now they have changed the name and they say the “charismatic dimension” of the church. This reflection has gone forward toward a direction that makes it impossible to take concrete steps, right?
Is there something that can be accepted [from this]? I think so. The idea that the ministries are not a decision of the bishop who chooses a friend for an important place, but that there is a need in the community and there is, in some people, an existing gift that responds to that need. We must be careful about this aspect so as not to create a structure that in the end continues to depend on [hierarchical] authority.
I only give these examples because I think that the issue of women in the church requires [us] to develop different ways, to choose and to reflect. Thank you.
[Pause for translation]
And there are the two last commissions on the diaconate; they were outside the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith. The one from the times of Ratzinger, yes, it was inside [the dicastery], but connected to the prefect, let’s say. These [today], no.
Since we don’t have any more time, I want to insist that you can send the proposals, perhaps through the secretariat of the synod, both for the role of women in the church, to group five, and to the commission on the diaconate. If we get something on the diaconate, we can read it, because sometimes there are aspects that can serve us, no? And then we’ll send it to the commission.
[There is some debate about who will ask the next question.]
Cristina Inogés Sanz, Spanish theologian and member of synod methodology commission
You said, what if we find out that there are women who preached, wouldn’t it be more important? You have named some people who are working in this commission and who are obviously experts in theology. I’m surprised that among them there is no one who knows that [women deacons] existed, that they are documented, that they are published [about], and that they are studied in some faculties of theology.
They were women who not only preached, but also accompanied and set the foundations of the pastoral ministry of the penitentiary, of the pastoral ministry of education, of the pastoral work of hospitals. My question is, what happened to these women? Because it turns out that they were lay, but they burned them. They were burned by the church that has never tolerated neither religious nor lay women.
And it gives me the feeling, I have the perception, that they are trying to burn us with ice, that is, with indifference, and that they are trying to [use up] our patience. And that seems to me to be a very unfair game. That is on the one hand. If you are interested, I can give you the information about these women so that you can see that they are documented solidly. That is on the one hand.
Cardinal Fernández
Excuse me. I would like to clarify that most of the people I have consulted have not yet answered. I mean, it is not strange that these examples have come up.
Cristina Inogés Sanz
Then you are making a very solid, very theoretical reflection, but have you considered the possibility of talking to a woman who has done a process of vocational discernment and [discerned] she really has a vocation for the diaconate? Let’s leave it to the ministry.
And then, on the other hand, it seems to me that it is a little—I want to say it in a slightly gentle way. It seems to me that it is a little—Well, I’m sorry, let’s say it directly. When you communicate, sorry, but you communicate very badly. This problem has been created by the dicastery, with that way of explaining, with that way of saying. We did not come up with any preconceived idea, but we found ourselves with a manifestation that, in addition to starting with a line that cut the rest, the pope decided that, therefore, the rest was left over.
And we have found that you have used a series of women [referring to those Cardinal Fernández said in his Oct. 2 address that the congregation is exploring, including Hildegard von Bingen] that—I do not know who has written the text, but it manifests a deep ignorance of what these women have done in the history of the church. And it is very sad because, once again, it is the manipulation of women through other female figures.
And that, honestly, I think is a very serious problem. And then—and with this I finish—perhaps maybe the theological question is not at this moment [about whether it is] a great advantage to be a deacon or deaconess in the church, because what needs to be solved is the reality of a ministerial model that is very exhausted in all its functions, ways and forms. And perhaps, while that is being solved, [the dicastery should] address other types of ministry based on baptism that would solve many logical problems. Why don’t you do that? Why don’t you open up possibilities instead of focusing only on the “deaconess, yes” or “deaconess, no?” That is my question.
Cardinal Fernández
Well, I agree, Cristina, with what you have said. It is not that we have a different idea of work, it is that which you have said now at the end. That proposal that you have said at the end, let’s say, the main way of work, perhaps [later] others will come out, but it is that.
And you are right that that list of women that I gave was not developed. There were cases, as you yourself told me, of Hildegard of Bingen, who took a very important step in history, freeing the female monasteries from male power. I did not say that at that time, but it is true that it is a point to take advantage of and deepen.
Sister María Luisa Berzosa González, F.I., consultor to the general decretariat of the synod
I am María Luisa Berzosa, a Spanish religious woman from the Congregation of the Daughters of Jesus, an educator of Ignatian spirituality. I am not a theologian, I am not a canonist, I dedicate myself to spiritual accompaniment, to giving [the Spiritual Exercises]. I accompany many people, and I am linked to collectives of sexual diversity, to abused women. This is the field in which I move.
I declare here publicly that I have no vocation of a deaconess. No, no, no, no. I do not feel called in this church to be a deaconess. But I would like us to continue to deepen [the topics of] the female deacon, the female priest, because we do not know where the Spirit is going to take us. Let’s not put obstacles, let’s not put barriers. Let’s keep moving forward, listening to the signs of life, women, men, what happens in our world, because that is where the Spirit is speaking, right?
And I like what you have put in the document that you read us about women, etc. It says, “From there new forms of ministeriality can come in order to expand the spaces for a more incisive female presence in the church,” from “Evangelii Gaudium.” I would like us to move forward there. That we not only dedicate ourselves to the female deaconess or the sacerdotal ministry, but because these days, and this is the second time that I have participated in the synodal assembly, I have perceived how much the church emphasizes the sacrament of Holy Orders. How much it emphasizes it!
If we are not sacramentally ordained, we feel excluded, right? So, I would also like to include, it is not at the same level, but it is anecdotal of what we are living in the church, what we are living in the process, right?: Yesterday I was in my facilitator group, we were voting [on] the commission that is named to help the pope, etc. All bishops and archbishops.
So, I said at my table, with a naïve face on, “This naming process is very striking, right?” And of course, someone told me, “It’s a synod of bishops.” I said, “Yes, it has broken, because I am here and I am not a bishop.” That is not like that. We can enter into shared spaces of work, also in dicasteries, also in commissions, but how can we do it if we barely share in the church, if we are separated. We are in the round tables [here] and when we go to the church we separate, and we cannot commune the body and the blood.
What does that mean, right? I do not put this at the level of the feminine diaconate, but they are signs that could be done in another way, and so we read that there is a baptismal dignity, there is a common vocation that unifies us and makes us have a more horizontal relation, more as brothers and sisters. Thank you so much.
[Light applause]
Cardinal-elect Ladislav Nemet, archbishop of Belgrade
I would like to thank you first for coming here to make this meeting. Last time we missed your presence a lot. Now I am very happy and thank you in the name, I think, of all of us who are here. And also your answers and thoughts have somehow assured us that the work is going [forward], even if with difficulty, in the right direction and we will also hear about the results.
I wanted to say a few things. You have already mentioned for the second time that the episcopal conferences have not responded to the request to welcome the scholars and catechists. I have been working in the church for 50 years. When I started working consciously, 50 years ago, we already had these women [scholars and catechists].
Does this mean that now again we have to wait 50 years for the dicastery and the Vatican, I don’t know, the pope, to see that we are 50 years behind? That is the first question.
The second one is that I respect women very much who do not want to become priests or deacons, but we give [this could also be translated as “let us give”] all women the opportunity to choose. This is the problem.
The third thing is the Marian dimension of which there is a lot of talk. I would quote a text by St. Peter. St. Peter, writing once, in one of his letters, writes to St. Paul [that] St. Paul has very difficult thoughts. I do not understand them. That is, it is not for everyone. Thank you.
[Light applause]
Cardinal Fernández
Thank you, Eminence.
Well, I want to say honestly that we need to receive proposed ideas because we try to interpret the needs and possibilities that women see, but they are not in their flesh [they have not been actualized]. So we need to understand where we can go in these concrete paths of women’s empowerment.
That is why we really need help, concrete proposals that will lead us forward, to take real steps forward.
What I felt today was very, very interesting to me. It is very important to open your mind to other ideas. I am not famous in the church for being a closed medieval, so you can rest assured that I have an open heart to see where the Holy Spirit takes us. Let’s move on. Thank you very much.
[Pause for translation]
Ruffini
One last thing. If you agree, this is a meeting within the synod, so [it follows] its criteria of confidentiality, but if you agree, since it has been recorded, we can also make it public for total transparency. Everything that has been said, if you want, I can make it “unbubbled,” I don’t think this evening, but maybe tomorrow we can spread it.
[Applause]
