Pope Francis restated his ardent desire to visit China, said Chinese Catholics have “the virus of hope” and revealed the advice he would give to his successor in an exclusive interview with Pedro Chia, S.J., the director of the Jesuit Communication Office of the Chinese Province, released on Aug. 9.
The video interview was conducted in Spanish by Father Chia in the private library of the Vatican’s apostolic palace, on May 24, the feast of Our Lady Help of Christians, who is venerated by China’s 12 million Catholics at the Shrine of Sheshan, outside Shanghai.
In a wide-ranging conversation, Pope Francis spoke about how he handles stress and time management, the biggest challenges of his papacy, experiencing crises in religious life, the grace of the Spiritual Exercises and the advice he would give to a person considering a Jesuit vocation.
Asked how he is able to keep a packed schedule of audiences, meetings and speeches, Francis says it is possible to do so “by living an organized life” and “[knowing] how to delegate,” because “if one tries to do everything alone, things don’t work out.” It requires the collaboration of many people, including the heads of dicasteries. “I do what I have to do with the help of everyone,” he said.
Father Chia asked how the pope deals with criticism and opposition. Francis replied that even critics who are not constructive “are always helpful because they make one reflect on one’s actions.” He said that consulting and listening to others also helps him. As for facing resistance, he said, “Many times you know that you have to wait, to endure...and often correct yourself because behind some resistance there can be [constructive] criticism. Sometimes also with pain, because the resistance, as it happens at these moments, is not only against me personally; it is against the church.”
“For example,” he said, “there is a group, a few people, who only recognize [the popes] up to Pius XII, not the popes [that come] afterward.” He recalled that a Spanish magazine recently published “a list of 22 groups which believe the Chair of Saint Peter is vacant (sede vacante). But they are small groups. [I think] over time they will integrate [with the church].”
Asked whether as pope he has experienced any unforgettable “consolations,” Francis said there are many but declined to mention one experience in particular. “Even moments of difficulty or desolation are always resolved afterward on a higher level…with consolation,” he said.
When Father Chia asked what has been the greatest challenge of his pontificate, Francis pointed to the Covid-19 pandemic and the conflicts in Ukraine, Myanmar and Israel-Palestine.
“I have always tried to resolve them through dialogue,” he said. “And when this does not work, with patience, and always with a sense of humor. The prayer of St. Thomas More helps me a lot, asking for a sense of humor. I have been praying that prayer every day for more than 40 years: ‘Grant me, Lord, a sense of humor.’”
The pope also confirmed he has experienced crises in his religious life as a Jesuit:
Of course! Otherwise, I wouldn’t be human! The crises have to be overcome always with two things. First, you emerge from a crisis by rising above, like from a labyrinth. A crisis, in a way, is like a labyrinth—you walk and walk and never seem to get out. You emerge from a crisis by rising above. And second, you never get out alone. You get out with help or through companionship. Letting yourself be helped is very important, isn’t it?
During the interview, Francis responded with humor several times, such as when asked what he would say to a young man who tells him he wants to be a Jesuit, Francis quipped, “Let him become a Dominican!” In a more serious vein, he added, “I would tell him to allow somebody to accompany him and to enter into discernment.” Moreover, he said: “There’s something in the Society of Jesus that we must never lose…missionary spirit…. It’s a missionary order. It’s interesting [that] the difficulties and resistance that St. Ignatius faced at the beginning were conflicts with people who looked inward and lost their missionary spirit.”
Francis recalled that when he was appointed provincial of the Jesuits in Argentina at a young age, he confronted conflicts “of being closed…. I called them ‘cloister sicknesses.’ The Lord helped those who advised me to send some of our people to the missions in Argentina. And that’s how the Argentine Missionary Team was formed. And this brought fresh air. It was wonderful.”
Asked whether there is “any particular aspect” of the Spiritual Exercises that is often in his heart as pope, the first Jesuit pope responded: “All of them…. I would say it depends on the circumstances, sometimes one thing helps me more than another, right? But one thing that I try to do is...to look for accompaniment...to listen first before deciding. To have someone accompany me so that I do not make mistakes.”
Aware of his shortcomings, the pope said that in prayer he asks for “the grace of being forgiven. May the Lord have patience with me.”
Turning his attention to China, Pope Francis yet again reaffirmed his heartfelt desire to visit the country, even though authorities there have not yet extended an invitation. “Oh yes, I really want to,” he said.
If this dream of his comes true, he said, he would like “to visit the Mother of Sheshan, Mary Help of Christians.” He added that in front of the entrance to his apartment in Casa Santa Marta, there is a statue of the Virgin of Sheshan.
He said he would like to meet “with the bishops certainly, and with the faithful people of God. They are faithful. They are indeed a faithful people...who have gone through so much and remained faithful.”
Asked what message he would like to send to the Catholics of China, and especially to the young Catholics, through this interview, Francis said: “[A]lways a message of hope. But it seems tautological to send a message of hope to a people who are masters of waiting. The Chinese are masters of patience, masters of waiting…. You have ‘the virus of hope.’ It’s a very beautiful thing.”
Since there are many Chinese people and many Chinese Catholics in different countries worldwide, Francis was asked if he had any message for them. After revealing that he “used to help a group of Chinese people in Argentina” the pope replied: “You are descendants of a great people…. You are a great people. Don’t waste this heritage. Pass it on with patience, this heritage of great people [that] you have.”
At the end of the interview, asked to give his blessing to all Chinese people, Pope Francis said, “Through the intercession of the Mother of Sheshan on her feast day today, I give the blessing to the entire Chinese people, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen.”
Looking to the future, Father Chia asked the pope, “What are your dreams for the Catholic Church in 50 years?” Francis recalled that “some say it will be a smaller, more reduced church.” He then added: “I think the church must be careful not to fall into the plague of clericalism and the plague of spiritual worldliness. Spiritual worldliness, as Father Henri de Lubac says, is the worst evil that can befall the church. Worldliness [is]...even worse than the time of the concubinary popes. That’s what he says.”
When asked what he would say to his successor as pope, Francis, who turns 88 years old on Dec. 17, replied without hesitation, “Pray!” A moment later, he added by way of explanation, “Because the Lord speaks in prayer.”
