Archbishop Paul R. Gallagher has served as the Vatican’s secretary for relations with states and international organizations, often referred to as the Vatican’s foreign minister, for 10 years. In this exclusive interview with America on the morning of Saturday, Feb. 22, before news of the pope’s respiratory crisis was known, he discussed the pope’s health and what he has learned working under Francis for the past decade.
The previous weekend, the English-born Vatican archbishop attended the annual Munich Security Conference (Feb. 14-16), generally considered the world’s leading forum for debating the most pressing challenges to international security, as he has done in past years. U.S. Vice President JD Vance and Secretary of State Marco Rubio were present and spoke in Munich. Archbishop Gallagher shared his conclusions about the conference and the vice president’s remarks.
In the hour-long interview, he also discussed how the Holy See viewed President Trump’s policy toward Gaza and the Vatican’s position on Israel and Palestine.
In Part II of the interview, Archbishop Gallagher discusses the Trump administration’s policies on Russia and Ukraine, mass deportations, foreign aid, climate change and artificial intelligence, as well as the Holy See’s relations with China and Vietnam.
Gerard O’Connell: The pope is in hospital. We saw the doctor’s report yesterday (Friday, Feb. 21). How do you see his situation and what impact is it having on the work here in the Vatican and the Secretariat of State?
Archbishop Paul Gallagher: Obviously, we are very concerned about the pope’s health, and we’re very moved by his situation. It’s not easy to see people who you know quite well and who are suffering, and so we’re trying to support the Holy Father with our prayers and our thoughts. It’s pretty obvious that, from what’s unfolded in the last few days, there’s a long road ahead for him; some of it’s encouraging, as the doctors are being cautious, but there is some slight improvement. It’s going to be a long haul, and I think we shouldn’t be expecting anything to improve overnight.
But he’s very strong, he’s very determined, as we know, and he’s somebody who will give—as he has always done throughout the whole of his life—everything to get better. At the same time, his major concern, I’m sure, is to do God’s will, and if God’s will is that he should get better, wonderful. If it’s God’s will that he shouldn’t, well then he will accept that. That is the spirit of his life, his spirituality as a Jesuit, which says that it doesn’t really matter whether your life is long or your life is short, it’s how you live that life. Pope Francis has always lived his life with great integrity, and he will continue to do so.
I think that speculation about resignation is not useful. He’s been very clear that, as he said about his mobility, you don’t govern the church with your legs but with your head and, I would say, with your heart as well. I think he will continue to do that as long as he can. Speculation about resignation is, at this time, not appropriate, and it’s certainly not on the cards.
Do you see him traveling again?
I think if he recovers, he’ll travel again, yes. But I think we have to take all these decisions one step at a time. I think that the days of the really big, long trips are over, but I wouldn’t exclude short trips.
Like to Nicaea?
Like Nicaea, yes, if he makes a recovery from this illness, I don’t see any reason why he shouldn’t go to Nicaea.
You have been the Vatican’s foreign minister for 10 years. What have you taken away, or what have you learned in those years?
I’ve learned that some of the things that I was apprehensive about have been overcome. I was very doubtful at the beginning whether at my age, I would be able to do this job, whether my memory would be up to it, and I find that you build up a certain stamina in this sort of work. I’ve learned a lot of things about the world, about the church. I’m not a particularly inquisitive person, and so I’ve been obliged in this work to become more familiar with parts of the world, with personalities, with issues, diplomatic and political issues, and that’s been very enriching.
It’s also been a privilege to work here with the Holy Father and with [Secretary of State] Cardinal Pietro Parolin. One of the things that you learn is that you see the heavy responsibilities of certain offices in the church, and it does, I think, extinguish some, shall we say, fanciful ambitions that you might have about yourself because you see the reality of responsibility, the difficulty of making decisions, of formulating a policy, and you see also the toll that it takes on people. That, humanly and spiritually speaking, has been a good lesson to have learned during these 10 years.
What have you experienced working with Pope Francis?
I’ve always been amazed that he approaches things with great serenity. He has this methodology that is based on his spirituality of discerning things and making decisions, and he doesn’t go back on those things. He really takes that discernment very seriously. He has this spirit of dedication, of sacrifice, and detachment from lots of things on which we thought our lives depended, but you see that they’re not essential. He lives in great simplicity, and he gives himself completely to his work and to the people that he’s serving. It’s amazing how at his age he can still see so many people, talk to so many people, be interested in people. And that, for me, is a great example.
You were at the Munich Security Conference last weekend. What climate did you find there? What conclusions have you drawn from it?
This year, the Munich Security Conference was characterized by a lot of, I would say, anxiety about what’s happening in the world, about the unpredictable nature of some of the conflicts that we were dealing with. The people there were less convinced of the capacity of the international institutions and the ways of doing things in our societies to resolve the problems than we were in the past. A lot of things are in the air, and people are concerned about whether we’re really going to be able to face up to the challenges of the coming months.
Representatives of the new U.S. administration were at the Munich conference, including Vice President JD Vance and Secretary of State Marco Rubio. What conclusions did you draw from the dynamic you saw at work in the conference?
People were very surprised by Vice President Vance’s speech to the conference, the challenges that he made, particularly to Europe. People were very concerned about that and were worrying about something that one had always fallen back on. The history of the Munich Security Conference is very much a trans-Atlantic alliance between Europe and the United States, and many people attending there were feeling that they were no longer completely confident in that relationship, no longer feeling that they were able to consider the United States an automatic partner. They were feeling very much challenged by the new American administration.
You’ve been at this conference for several years as a representative of the Holy See. How did you read it?
I came away from it with a clear idea—not necessarily with a great feeling that everything’s going to be all right—but I did feel that maybe one understood things a little bit better, and understood the challenges that we’re going to face in coming months.
What do you see as those challenges?
It’s mainly the big conflicts in Ukraine and in the Middle East. These are situations of such great human suffering, and there is a great feeling within the international community that we have to look for solutions; we have to bring an end to these wars, to the suffering. But how that is actually going to come about is as perplexing as ever.
One of the things that President Trump has said regarding Gaza was to remove the entire Palestinian population of over two million people, to get them out of Gaza and into other countries. What does the Holy See think about that?
The Holy See has always maintained a position regarding forced migration. We do not believe this to be the correct road to pursue in resolving any form of problem, whether it’s a war or conflict or anything. In the context of Gaza, it’s very difficult to understand exactly how that could even come about, even if you were to accept it in principle, which we do not. But the positions of Egypt and Jordan have always been very clear with regard to receiving Palestinians. And Jordan in particular, which has received many, many hundreds of thousands of Palestinians already over many decades, is clearly excluding that.
I think we have to remember that Gaza, despite the ruins that it is in, is home to these people. You know there are generations of Palestinians who have been born and lived their lives there, and even in its pitiful, ruined state, it is still their home, and they want to stay there, and they want to rebuild their lives there, and I think we just cannot go against this.
Many of today’s Palestinians or their closest ancestors were already forced to leave their properties from other parts of the Holy Land. It’s not right to say they are a problem. They are people. They are human beings, and we have to try and act in a way that is respectful of them, of their dignity as human beings, and understand the tremendous suffering that they have been through and what they’re going through day in and day out. One is just lost for words before such a proposal.
The Holy See has always been for a two-state solution in the Holy Land as the path to peace. Is that still its stance?
That is still its position! In fact, the Holy See, for many years before this most recent horrible conflict, following on the atrocious events of the seventh of October, was one of the members of the international community that was still talking about a two-state solution when many others were discarding it. Now it’s quite obvious that the possible realization of this is in question because the situation in the West Bank is extremely serious as well. And if there were to be the annexation of the West Bank by Israel, it’s very difficult to see how there would be any hope in the near future of bringing about a two-state solution.
What is the Holy See advocating now?
We’re advocating a full cease-fire. We’re advocating the release of all the hostages. We’re advocating the protection of civilians and full respect for international humanitarian law. We’re advocating the reconstruction of Gaza. We are advocating the stabilization of the situation in the West Bank and respect for the Palestinian people there. And then, moving forward, toward a solution of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. But we do believe that the resolution of the Palestinian question is at the heart of so many of the problems of the Middle East, whether it’s Syria, Lebanon or elsewhere in the region.
Some Israeli and Jewish leaders have criticized Pope Francis for the way he has focused on the Palestinian-Israeli question, and some have even criticized him for phoning every day to the Catholic community in Gaza, to the parish priest of Gaza. What do you say to such criticism?
The pope has tried to reach out to both sides of this terrible conflict. It’s true, he tries to make this phone call every evening to the parish in Gaza, to speak to the priests and to get the news of the people there. And that’s been greatly appreciated, but he’s also received many of the families of the hostages. He’s also written a letter to his Jewish brothers and sisters in Israel, and another letter to Catholics of the Middle East. He’s tried to be a pastor to all of these people.
