This is the second installment of a two-part interview with Archbishop Paul Gallagher. Read Part I here.
In the second part of an exclusive interview with America, Archbishop Paul Gallagher, the Vatican’s secretary for relations with states, shares what the Holy See thinks about President Donald Trump’s decision to negotiate with Russia over the war in Ukraine without involving the Ukrainians. The English-born archbishop also discusses the Trump administration’s mass deportation policy and its decision to withdraw from multilateral agreements and cut foreign aid spending. Finally, he speaks about the Holy See’s relations with China and Vietnam.
Gerard O’Connell: President Trump has opened a dialogue with Russia and President Putin. He authorized the meeting of U.S. and Russian diplomats in Saudi Arabia without the Ukrainian presence. How does the Holy See read that?
Archbishop Paul Gallagher: We always believe that when you’re talking about the future of Ukraine, the Ukrainian people have to be part of that negotiation. It’s true that sometimes people need mediation. But in this case, we can understand the Ukrainian concern that they are apparently being sidelined. They have to be involved; they have to be because it’s their future, their life. It’s their country, after all.
What do you say when you hear President Trump saying that Ukraine is responsible for the war?
We have to be very clear about whose tanks went across whose border, and that’s very clear. Now, you can say that maybe some of Ukraine’s pre-war strategies could have been different. I am prepared to accept that, but, in the end, the decision to invade was Russia’s alone.
What do you say when Trump denounces Zelensky as a dictator?
That is not a fair evaluation. It’s true that they should have had some elections in Ukraine, but they have been unable to hold the elections because of martial law, and that seems reasonable enough. But to say he’s a dictator, that’s not an appropriate term. On a war front, you have to have strong leadership, strong decision-making, and President Zelensky has had to make big decisions, and he’s had to change people in his government from time to time, but I think that calling him a dictator is not true to the facts.
Everybody talks about a just peace in this conflict. What does the Holy See see as a just peace?
Our point of departure is the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. What the Ukrainians may wish to negotiate or what they are prepared to concede is their affair, their business, and we need to support them.
A just peace would be a peace that corrects the aggression that they have suffered. But at the moment, it is very difficult to say exactly what the Ukrainians would consider a just peace. They would like to get all their territory back, which has been occupied by Russia. But at the same time, that doesn’t look very likely. Therefore, if they’re going to settle for less, will that be a just peace? And of course, there are many in the international community, within Europe, who think that this would not be a lasting peace either. I think these are things that will eventually have to be hammered out in negotiations.
Do you see peace coming to Ukraine this year?
I think the pressure that America is putting on the war will have an effect. We may well see an end to the war within this year. Exactly what form that end will take, I really don’t know, but I think things are going to continue to evolve in the coming weeks and months.
Would you say it’s essential for a just peace that Ukraine remains a sovereign nation?
Yes. It must be so.
In the United States, the Trump administration has moved to begin mass deportations. Mr. Trump, in his campaign, promised the deportation of maybe 11 or 12 million undocumented immigrants, and now, as president, he seems determined to follow through with that. How does the Holy See view this?
Our position is pretty clear. The Holy See will always oppose mass deportation. Collective punishment of peoples is always going to be unjust. One has to be realistic in saying that the United States, like many countries in Europe, needs migrants; they need workers.
If people have come illegally into the country, you have to take into consideration some of the circumstances; what are the circumstances prevailing in the countries from which these people have come? In some places, it’s a question of deprivation, it’s a question of poverty, and it can sometimes be the result of a situation of great criminality. But all of these things mean one has to be much more discerning when addressing this question.
Nobody is going to question the fact that a country is deporting criminals. But that’s not the problem. The question is that the administration wants to deport ordinary people of all ages, and also people who maybe have been in the United States for a very long time. We hear of people being deported and having to leave their children and families behind.
There are problems of migration nearly everywhere in the world, but we have to look at these again. These are people. They’re not just numbers. These are people who have created homes and established communities. This is one of the things that the pope keeps repeating: We’re not dealing with statistics here; we’re dealing with people, with their own stories. And as people often say, there are so many millions of people around the world who are originally migrants, legal or irregular migrants, and we have to have a humane approach, even if there is a problem. Obviously, there are abuses and breaking of laws, but we have to deal with these problems in a humane and, we would say, from a Christian point of view, in a charitable way.
So the Holy See is against the identification of an undocumented worker as a criminal?
Yes. Not everybody who breaks the rules is a criminal. We know from our own lives that many of us, for one reason or another, have ended up breaking rules, but that doesn’t make us criminals.
If you were to sit with Mr. Trump now on this question, what would you say to him?
One would appeal to him to see behind the figures and the numbers to see the human stories that are represented by these illegal migrants in the United States today.
President Trump has decided to withdraw the United States from the Paris accords. What does the Holy See think about this?
The Holy See has made an enormous effort to join the U.N. convention on climate change and to adhere to the Paris agreements. We were not able to do either of those things immediately. We’ve had to work at it. So we regret that a major player such as the United States is pulling out because it is setting a very bad precedent. We believe that climate change is a reality and that it is a threat to the future of humanity, and we need the entire international community united to address this crisis.
Let’s not forget: The main victims of this crisis are the poorest people and future generations. We would encourage the United States to think long and hard before doing this because what they can contribute is so fundamental to the future of the world, and they can be such a force for good on the question of climate change.
President Trump has also instructed the United States to withdraw from the World Health Organization, which was so essential during Covid-19, and to close down the U.S. Agency for International Development.
I think most of these big organizations, whether they’re national or international, very often merit criticism and can do with reforms, but they also make a vast contribution. The Holy See would have criticisms of some of the policies of the World Health Organization, but at the same time, we believe that they can do much good, and they are, for so many countries, developed and undeveloped, essential.
As for U.S.A.I.D., we are already seeing throughout almost the whole world the impact that the withdrawal of development aid is causing and is going to cause in so many places. You can say that maybe there is a danger of creating dependence, but there’s also the fact that there are many situations of emergency, many situations where the local resources are insufficient to assist the development of the country and to build a future for these countries. Therefore, we very much regret this decision.
It’s already having a big effect on lots of Catholic charities around the world. Catholic Relief Services is already having to lay off people because of the funding crisis that the closure of U.S.A.I.D. has caused. This is a major step and something that is going to have profound repercussions throughout the world.
We have seen in recent years the unraveling of the multilateral approach to resolving problems. Did you perceive that at the Munich Security Conference, too?
I think that’s been the situation for a long while, and most of the multilateral organisations are finding themselves in considerable difficulty. The rule-based order that from 1946 onward we have tried to create and establish is breaking down, and there is a danger that people will see the way of resolving conflicts and problems as being the pursuit of the national interest. Obviously, the Holy See believes in the pursuit of the common good.
One of the big actors in today’s world is China. For years, the Holy See has been seeking to engage in a dialogue with Beijing. A breakthrough came in September 2018 with the signing of the provisional agreement on the nomination of bishops, which has been renewed three times. How do you envisage the relations with China developing?
We remain committed to the dialogue on the appointment of bishops. That is, more or less, the extent of our engagement with China at the moment. We don’t have diplomatic relations with them. We don’t have any representation in mainland China. We believe that it is a process of continuing this dialogue, working on these questions of the appointment of bishops, trying to make this agreement work better, and slowly, hopefully, by doing so, building up a sense of trust and understanding between the Holy See and the People’s Republic of China.
But Beijing did receive Cardinal Matteo Zuppi as the pope’s envoy, seeking to address the situation in Ukraine. That is surely something more in terms of dialogue.
You are right. Cardinal Zuppi went to inform them. The idea at that time was that there might be a role for China in bringing an end to the war in Ukraine. Since Cardinal Zuppi was dealing with Ukraine, Russia and the United States, it was felt here that he should also go to China.
Do you read the fact that Beijing accepted the pope’s envoy as a consequence of the Holy See’s improving relations with China, or do you see the Sino-Vatican relationship as static?
No, I think there is movement. There is greater familiarity now, and we are beginning to be able to relate to each other in a more relaxed manner.
One last question: Vietnam. There has been a very positive development in relations between the Holy See and Vietnam in recent years, so much so that both the government and the Catholic Church want Pope Francis to visit the country. Do you foresee the establishment of diplomatic relations in the near future?
We now have a resident papal representative in Hanoi, which we didn’t have before. His position is recognized and facilitated by the government authorities. This is a relationship that is growing and moving forward. Both the church and the state would very much like to see a visit from the Holy Father, and I think that will happen at some point in the future, and hopefully before that happens, we will have established diplomatic relations between the Holy See and Vietnam.
This is the second installment of a two-part interview with Archbishop Paul Gallagher. Read Part I here.
